Crafting a Brand Promise that Resonates

00:03 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

When I was helping Goldman Sachs build Marcus, the digital bank, their first hypothesis was let's just really put a digital bank out there from GE Money and throw a Goldman logo on it, with checking and savings. Let's see how we do. But the reality is, when we listen to consumers across the country, they talked about their needs around capital, whether it was a leaky roof, a central air conditioning that broke or childcare expenses that were getting out of hand. We set out to create an experience that did personal lending better than anyone else, faster than anyone else and more transparent than any bank could ever provide. That is a promise to the customer right.

00:58 - Fred Cadena (Host)

of Banking on Disruption for: 2024

02:07

You may have noticed this episode is a little shorter than average. Travel, client schedules and technology fails conspired to prevent us from recording a quick take segment for you this week. We actually tried for about 30 minutes on Tuesday and the only result was a very number of hilarious screenshots of my frozen face as my hotel internet struggled to keep pace. Rest assured, josh, Eric and I are poison ready to rejoin in two weeks for our next episode. While you're listening to our podcast, why not take a moment to follow us on LinkedIn at the Banking on Disruption podcast and on Instagram at at banking on disruption? Now sit back and strap in, because our show is coming to you right now and welcome back.

02:57

I am super excited this week to be welcoming my friend, , into the podcast. Brandon is a proven leader who has enjoyed long tenures at Razerfish, accenture and IBM, utilizing strategic roadmaps and data-driven insights to build brands and delivered human centered experiences. He brings a track record of exceeding growth targets, capturing market share for Fortune 500 clients while optimizing operational costs and profitability. His expertise lies in optimizing experiences through behavioral insights, surveys, interviews and design thinking to improve customer satisfaction, while embedding new marketing platforms, automation tools and experience management capabilities within brands to improve employee productivity. He is a thought leader and I invited him on the podcast this week primarily because I wanted to engage in a conversation around how brands are really evolving to better deliver on their promise to customers, and one of the things he's been sharing with me recently is a new philosophy, a new approach that he has come across called promise to the customer. And so, brandon, welcome first to the podcast. And let me ask you what is promise to the customer?

04:16 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

Thanks, fred, for the great introduction. Happy new year and happy new year. Let's dive into the promise to the customer. I'll illustrate it with an example. Let's say that your bank promises to really be fast in the way they provide a mortgage. Well, they have to stand behind that in the way that the application process works, but as well as every bit of that fulfillment. So this should really relate to the marketing. It should relate to the way the phone conversations go with the service agents and even how you operate within a branch. It takes elements of service design where you're designing all those interactions with, of course, human-centered design at its core. But it also hangs on top of the brand strategy. It's going to really fulfill some of the promises made. So, fred, as we see, the promise to the customer takes shape. This I really have credit. This isn't my own making. This is from Wark WARC and also the.

05:19

LinkedIn Business Institute. They've done a number of studies around B2B behaviors and they're finding that brands who do use a promise to the customer framework are really getting far better results than when they're not. You know, brands who are not making that promise. And this is regardless of what marketing spend. It's not like the bigger brands are really getting the best results. It could be any size spend. You're still going to get that return on investment.

05:50 - Fred Cadena (Host)

That's. It's really interesting and really exciting. I, I imagine and I'm sure we'll get into this more you, you only get that payoff if you're actually fulfilling the promise that you're you're saying you're going to deliver on. You know, you, you can't go out and write a check and say we're going to be fast and then have the experience at any point in that customer cycle be anything other than fast.

06:14 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

Yeah, yeah, but it's about doing one thing well.

06:17

It honestly comes out to that, fred. So another example I can give you is when I was helping Goldman Sachs build Marcus, the digital bank, their first hypothesis was let's just really put a digital bank out there from GE money and throw a Goldman logo on it, and with checking and savings, and let's see how we do. But the reality is, when we listen to consumers across the country, they talked about their needs around capital, whether it was a leaky roof, a central air conditioning that broke or childcare expenses that we're getting out of hand. So we set out to create an experience that did personal lending better than anyone else, faster than anyone else and trans, more transparent than any bank could ever provide. That is a promise to the customer, right, we're going to give you your money immediately, transparently and in the palm of your hand. So it's in that, that moment of need when you talk into a contractor, that moment of need when you're trying to pay the bills for your childcare, that you'll have all of that capability in minutes and hours, not days and weeks or months.

07:24 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Yeah, I love that. I guess my first question would be how does a bank or other financial institution go about implementing this? I imagine one of the first steps would have to be figuring out what your brand promise is. It's probably a function of both what they think the market would respond to as well as what they think they can deliver. But how does a brand go about doing that?

07:53 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

Yeah, it's really grounded in user research and you start with the secondary research that really tells you what the competition's doing, where the trends are, and you use that to really refine your primary research, which is the user interviews, the ride-alongs, where you're watching and observing consumers. This allows you to walk away with hypotheses and it's these hypotheses that you test in the market, and I can't emphasize this enough. Right, there's no bank today that's going to be able to create a bulletproof business case that will allow them to put this new product or service into market. You have to test and learn into it. You find a small group of trusted advisors. I've used a company called Wevo that allows me to put screens and prototypes in front of a panel of 200 of my ideal users, and they give me feedback in just a week or two. So we're really seeing shortened timelines for rapid prototyping, shortened timelines for doing your user testing, and that allows you to try multiple ideas at once. And then you have to look at scaling it.

09:09

are likely to switch banks in: 2024

09:53 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Yeah, I think you're spot on. I think that, if anything, it is more incumbent of smaller brands to really put themselves out there, and to me it feels like a way to create real differentiation between them and kind of the national and super regionals is for them to be able to go out and find that appropriate niche, make a very specific and deliverable promise to them and then use that as their anchor point to capture or retain market share 100%, that's right.

10:29

So yeah, I love the idea of anchoring this in research. But I would imagine I don't know, and you tell me you're more the front end of this, I've been more on the implementation side of it. But where do you even come up with what are the ideas that you want to research? How do you come up with? Oh, we want to be the fast, we want to be the easy. Everybody says fast is easy. Right, we want to be the fast, we want to be the easy, we want to be the small business. How do you even find out what it is you want to test?

11:06 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

I love that.

11:07

I think it's top down, bottom up, and what I mean by that is top down is we're looking at some of the key trends from respected leaders like Gartner and Forrester, who were really painting a picture for what's ahead. I think it's also around looking at your competition. Where is the white space? Where is there an underserved audience? And I think you mentioned small business and commercial banking in particular. I would say that I would place a bet on those audiences very easily this year. And the bottom up is really looking at the survey data, at your user interviews, at your behavioral data, to find where the pain points are, where are the customer needs that they're voicing out of frustration, where there's some real pain that we can uncover, and then how do we solve for that pain. I think a really effective model will be to serve both of those needs simultaneously and ideally, because where they converge is where I think you hit a sweet spot. Where the bottom up and top down concentric circles overlap, you're going to have your best chance at creating something new and remarkable.

12:20 - Fred Cadena (Host)

How. I don't want to say unique, but does a bank need to, or other institutions need to, orient around a single promise, or is there room to differentiate that promise for potentially different audiences? I've got an ultra high net worth group and I'm going to make a promise to them that's different potentially from my young investor or my young new checking account holder versus my small business. Does it get too confusing or too difficult to execute to have multiple promises?

12:53 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

It's more the latter, because when I say this promise to the customer, I'll elaborate on it some more and what's involved with the organization. When you use that mortgage example, you have to think about the call agents, the call center agents who are picking up the phone and how we would like them to the tone that they would use the immediacy, the data that's at their fingertips to have an informed conversation, the empathy that they exhibit. I want to think about the branch associate and the same expectations I have of them, as well as the folks who are sending out the emails, the agency who's putting out the banner campaigns and the folks who are doing the search terms. All of that has to be thought holistically. There's going to be team meetings where each of those channel owners are going to be present. You're all going to have this as a mission to follow. That can really be an undertaking, fred.

13:48

The reason why I'm saying start small, start this promise around one thing that you could do exceptionally well, that you know you can. It might be a product, it might be a service, hopefully ones that you already have in your tool belt but it might mean enhancing or inventing. What I'll tell you is, in my experience. It's not the features and functions, so much I don't think it's the big bells and whistles that made you remember and love the last iPhone. It's the groundbreaking innovation that really will catch your attention. I think that's what we're looking for. It might be as simple as stripping away the noise, stripping away all of the complications of the bank and simplifying it.

14:31 - Fred Cadena (Host)

In the implementation today. I agree it is a huge undertaking. It feels like there needs to be a significant amount of change management. It also seems like there needs to be a specific amount of what I would call product ownership. Somebody that is owning this brand promise across the bank with the gravitas to be able to go into different people's area of influence be it contact center, be it branch network, be it operations underwriting what have you and really advocate for changing processes and changing behaviors to align to this new strategy. How does the bank really get that effort underway?

15:19 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

Yeah, I love that you're hitting on all those points because you're 100% right. That's what's required. Look, I've also been a big proponent of chief experience officers or head of experience who would really have this accountability. I'm going to say this again there's two parts to this. The first part is giving the authority to an individual to really carry the vision forward and drive the team forward. The second part of that, it's really a mid-tier to bottom tier.

15:45

For this change, you've got to have the folks who know how to use the tools, who understand how to work with the segmentation, who know how to work with the third-party data, who understand the nuances to pushing these signals through to a branch, to a call center. These are the folks who are looking for a mission. They're looking for that exciting new thing to get them to wake up in the morning and show up to work. For If you give that to them, wrapped around with a new campaign attached to it, I think that you'll be surprised by how motivated some of them will be, especially with that person who's driving the change up top. They have to be an evangelist. They have to be wired in a way that is building excitement.

16:29

But I've seen it work best at a bank I've worked with in Texas. We've done everything from video production to promote this effort. We have used contests, we've gamified some of the experiences using simple things like the employee portal. We've launched podcasts with bringing some of the actual employees in to talk about it. Now you're creating awareness. People are clamoring, trying to become a part of this new promise to the customer exercise. It gets a big deal of attention. Now, again, the work that has to be done before that, fred, is that test and learn. You have to be able to at least validate that this is a promise we can fulfill before we make all of this ceremony around it.

17:19 - Fred Cadena (Host)

I love that. I've been thinking a little bit about sharing with the audience more examples of where this is being done. Well, it's my assumption and correct me if I'm wrong here that this has not been originated so much in financial brands. Financial brands might be a little bit behind in adopting this methodology. If that's the case, do you have any interesting case studies, maybe from outside of financial services?

17:50 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

Yeah, I think I've really admired what Ed Bastion is doing, the CEO of Delta Airlines. I'm going to paraphrase a bit, but he talks a lot about the. You start thinking about your next trip when you are touching down on your current trip and coming home to LaGuardia Airport. The importance of that means that everything from the softness of the landing to the message that the pilot says over the airwaves, whether they're pushing a credit card on you or not, what the stewardesses do to help, what the disembarking experience is like, what the agents at the front desk say to you as you're exiting out into the terminal, and what that terminal looks like upon exit how easy is it to get your bag. You know, if you put that into a paradigm for a bank, I would challenge you to bring to me one bank who is really thinking all the way through to that exit phase. You know, within design research we talk about the five E's. It's an experience model. The first is entice. That's where you want to learn and explore.

19:05

What are my options to bank or to fly a plane? The second is enter. This is where I've now submitted an application for some sort of product or, if I've entered into a branch, walked in the door, there's the engagement, where I've engaged as the third phase, where I'm going to now begin to transact, I'm going to put money into my account, I'm going to connect it to my checking and savings accounts in my other banks. Then there's the exit. So if they are going to leave, this is exiting the plane. What does that look like? Then the last E is extend, that's to bring them back. So, once I've completed my mortgage process, how do I bring you back for wealth management? How do I bring you back for a college fund for your toddler? These are things that, unfortunately, aren't of common muscle with many banks, because each one of those departments are run as almost individual banks.

20:05 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Yeah, I mean, it's the holy grail. I don't think I've ever talked to a bank that has not been interested in deepening the relationship, getting a bigger share of wallet cross-selling product, but I agree that frequently it doesn't necessarily happen well. So what are the takeaways? What are the learnings for banks when it comes to that extend in leveraging promise to the customer?

20:30 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

I think that it's across a couple of different. I'll outline a few. So the first I would say is you have to articulate this vision the vision is impossible, is not possible without the research and make sure that this vision is feasible and viable. You're going to do that hand in hand with your technology teams and your analytics teams. Then you're going to test and learn and iterate. You're going to put this into the prototypes, into the hands of actual users. Get this feedback, see if it's working. All of this should be measured in weeks and maybe a couple of months, not quarters, not years. We can do this rapidly today.

21:12

Once you have some evidence of what can be done, what's possible, what resonates, we start to bring some scale, and this should be looked at across the operating model. Who are the key people? Who will be accountable? Let's look at our captive audience first. Look at the current employees who bring the curiosity, who bring the ambition that can be evangelists for us, who are comfortable using data. Get them involved at this stage, empower them to play a key role. Then name this promise to the customer, put it out there, name it, get people excited about it, get your agencies involved to put campaigns around it and then bring some scale.

21:53

The last bit I'll tell you is we have to get results. Look at the results early and often we're going to optimize it early and often Don't set it and forget it. You're going to refine that continuously and then, once you have these results, share it with the world, champion it from the rooftops of your organization. Even if it's a small win, even if it's just 10,000 customers, celebrate it, show the results and then find your next win and that's going to really bring scale. I don't care what size company or bank you're from.

22:23 - Fred Cadena (Host)

I love the example that you gave from Delta Airlines and I'm a bit of a road warrior and I'm not a Delta flyer and maybe I should be if they're actually delivering on the brand promise and I don't know that everybody uses the terminology or thinks in the formal promise of the customer methodology. But I'll go ahead and out myself. I've been an American Airlines loyalist for a long time. I will attribute it to the fact that I grew up in Texas and other than Southwest it's pretty much the big airline down there and then I spent 16 years in Chicago and you pretty much had a choice of American or United, unless you wanted two hops for every one of your flights. But American I'll use that as an example.

23:16

They definitely talk in language that is making, if not a promise, certainly a commitment. We're going to be a pleasant flying experience, we're going to, we're here to serve and these types of things. But I will tell you and I have real low expectations because I'm on the plane quite a bit Most of the time they don't even meet those mid-level expectations. So what's the risk? What's the risk to brand reputation If you get out on a podium and say, hey, we're the bank for X. Our promise is this, and then that experience does not come to fruition.

23:59 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

Oh, that's what you have to test, test and test. Fred, I would be. I would never put anything out there that wouldn't be viable or feasible for my bank to actually fulfill, and that's why I'm suggesting something so small, right, something that we know we can hit out of the park. That's the bit that you have to do. Well, so if Americans said, look, we're always going to be, I would never say we're always going to be on time. There's too many variables. There's too many variables. But you know what? You're always going to have the most comfortable seat. You're going to travel to where you're going in the most comfort. I think that's within their control. I think we're going to be the nicest to you. You're going to have the most pleasure upon entering. Yeah, I think they can control that.

24:45

So when I think about the banks, there's another philosophy I want to share with you, and it surrounds this attention economy. I've heard EY use this a couple times, and what they talk about is really business owners and consumers are not thinking about their bank. So in that case, where their attention is being drawn in other places, what are some other things that we can think up? That is maybe a new product or new service or maybe our brand can show up in places where consumers are hanging out. I'm not going to suggest off the cuff that Bank of America should start to leverage Fortnite in some radical new way in their brand to transact. However, I don't think it's that outrageous or atlandish and I'm sure I'm not the first person to even say but make that connection between the two. So if gaming is a key way that consumers are increasingly spending time, you just have to put these sort of facts in front of you and then think where are we set up to play that we have the right to play, and if we don't have the right to play there, do we have to then invent something new? Or is it just too much work?

25:59

And I think that focus groups are the one weapon that we have to validate some of this, putting in front of real customers, and I think that there's a book that I often quote with Teresa Torres, a book called Continuous Discovery, and the idea of just doing a single point in time focus group is gone. Instead, there's a notion of always learning, having your trusted constituents that are users, either employees or customers, that you can call upon consistently, regularly, to look at your experiences, to opine on them, to give you feedback. That is where we are today, fred, and again, I don't care what size bank you are, you should be able to corral enough users to create that circle of trust to continuously give you that feedback. So there are some dependencies. There is this willingness that a bank has to make to pull captive resources forward, to get them active now in some completely new, radical stuff. But they have the following traits around curiosity, use of data and evangelism.

27:10

I think the other bit is let's look at where we've already made investments in technology. We're not in the same place we were several years ago, fred, pre-covid. Everyone's made their investments in Adobe and Salesforce and Axiom and Google and Workday, and you name it. Everybody's got the pieces.

27:25

But what everybody keeps complaining about is none of them talk to each other, none of them are integrated, none of them are really configured for my business needs. So let's start to get the house in order. That's just good hygiene. So I'm going to suggest that's a prerequisite before we get aggressive on any of this promise to the customer. And then the other bit I might suggest on that same note is that as we define the requirements to make the promise to the customer happen. My guess is you're going to have to do some refinements to those configurations and to those integrations Because your promise probably will have some impacts on speed. Your promise will probably have some impacts on the amount of channels and some impact location. So I think it will be. It will be prove any organization to get their house in order first.

28:16 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Yeah, no, I think that makes a ton of sense, and, as I think about what some of these brand promises that banks and other institutions might make could be, they are going to really kind of the effort is going to be shouldered either by overwhelming your employees to make things happen in the face of disconnected, latent systems that are in silos, or investing in the infrastructure to really make that something scalable and deliverable in a consistent and expected manner over time. And so I think you're absolutely right Like getting your technology in house together, making sure the integrations work as expected and making sure that your employees that are really on the front lines delivering this promise in a real way to your customers day in and day out, have the tools that they need to actually fulfill what that commitment is. Yeah, that's 100% right.

29:22 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

Thank you for summarizing that You're right.

29:25 - Fred Cadena (Host)

So I'm curious, one of the things that I thought about. I love the idea of continuous discovery. I love the idea of finding things, getting small groups together, testing, iterating, testing, iterating. One of the things that I've been asked a number of times, I'd love to get your thoughts on it is, as we come up with new and innovative ideas, new and innovative ways of delivering, reaching customers, etc. How do we prototype them and test those concepts without giving away the secret sauce, without letting our competitors know? This is the direction we're going before something is fully baked.

30:04 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

Oh yeah, that's a great question. I would say that there's a couple of different levels of fidelity that our prototypes take shape. The first level will be paper-based. We can then go to something clickable, and the next level will be something that is public, shareable in a beta mode. The example I cited at a company called Wevo, where it's a private panel where NDAs are signed.

30:29

I can set the type of user. Let's say, I want a high net worth individual with the following demographics I want them to just interact with this page no queue. I'm not giving them any instruction of what to do. I want to just show this to them. I want to collect feedback on what catches their attention, what they don't understand, what they like. That again, doing that in a period of time, of days, is really a competitive advantage. Now, I think that, I hope, responds to what you're saying, fred. How do you not get the competition to see this? How do we still do this on the sly, having that trusted circle of customers that I mentioned to you earlier? They have their NDAs as well. They're very invested in your business. They're excited to see the next iteration. They're almost like a board member of your tiny little experience that you're running. I think that's a great way to also get this feedback in a timely manner, in a consistent manner, yeah.

31:28 - Fred Cadena (Host)

That makes a lot of sense. I love that you called out the fact that not all of these tests have to be out in the wild. They don't have to be built out. I love the idea of different levels of fidelity. It certainly, I think, makes the idea of running through a number of iterations a lot more realistic than trying to actually build something, put it out in the wild and then collect feedback.

31:52 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

That's right. That's right. You have to do that iteratively through a number of stages. Absolutely Well, Fred. I think the big aha here is that none of this is news on how to iterate for any product owner, but the aha is how fast this could be done. Today it's just a much more rapid process to get this sort of feedback than has ever been possible before.

32:17 - Fred Cadena (Host)

So I'm going to set up an impossible scenario then. So assume that I'm an institution and I have all of those technology investments that we talked about before Kind of stitch together, and I've got a internal change management team that is sitting poised waiting to help manage the, the, the people change that is going to have to happen as a result of this, and I've got an experience officer who has the authority and experience to really, you know, drive this. So kind of the perfect scenario from a setup perspective. How quickly, you know, kind of run me through what a timeline would look like from. I think creating a brand promise, a promise to the customer, is the right methodology, the right next step to actually have something that has been, you know, battle tested and is now ready to be, you know, implemented and released to the wild. What does that timeline look like today?

33:19 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

Sure, sure. So I'm going to make one more assumption to Fred, in that we've actually designed, we've done the organizational design, so everybody understands roles and responsibilities clearly and you know collaboration and communication, you know plans are laid out. I would say that you have to allow yourself anywhere from four to six weeks to to be fully transition knowledge. And here's what I mean. The first phase of this would be two and a. We'd be two in a box throughout.

33:50

And the first phase of this, the consulting lead or the expert this could be an in house constituent would be executing, whether it be writing the copy, putting out the campaigns, creating the segments, putting it out the door, while they have someone shadow them, which let's call, that's the associate, the BAU associate. And phase two, that would go on for about a week or two. And phase two, they share the responsibility. Let's say, the expert takes on some of the segmentation while the associate takes on some of the copywriting. And phase three, they switch the roles. Now the associate plays lead and the expert will be responsible for shadowing and opining and giving feedback. Does that make sense?

34:35 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Yeah, no, I think that makes a lot of sense and I love that approach of like stair stepping on to taking on more and more of that responsibility. I think that makes a lot of sense Now there has to be.

34:48 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

Well, there has to be done in a couple of different places. I'm sorry to talk over you, fred, but you know there has to be done in a couple of places. You know I'm talking about the marketing campaign, execution. I would say the same would be true for for development cycles, the same would be true for the tech build right. I think that has to be a rinse and repeat across the organization and you know, when done right, they're all working in the same pod around customer acquisition, for example. So they're not, they're all marching to the same beat of the same drum.

35:21 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Yeah, no, that. I think that makes a lot of sense. I love, I love all of this like in the weeds of how to do it. I want to go back and you touched on it a little bit of the being of our conversation, but, as we're getting close to wrapping up, I want to leave our listeners with, you know, something they can start to dig into, and I'm going to put you a little bit on the spot and say, if you were working with a, with a bank or another financial institution today and you were going through ideating about what this promise to the customer might look like, where are some areas you would start to probe, like, where do you think there might be low hanging fruit, niches that have not been explored, or things that are being driven by market trends that banks may want to look at, that they haven't necessarily considered before?

36:13 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

I, I well, could you put me on the spot here? The way that starting to do this with a couple of banks now is is doing the, the, the market research to find what is it that is common knowledge that we can recognize where things are going. We're doing a gap assessment right now to look at, well, based upon where the, the needs are, where the market is, what are the capabilities we have as a bank and are we set up for success to solve for these problems? So that's that's sort of step one. The second is to look at where the customers the most championed and prized customers and how do we leverage them and, whether it be to introduce them to this new product as a friends and family, how do we do look alike so we could find more like them?

37:01

I think it's also about, you know, testing and learning, like I said, to put these, put this new promise to the customer in front of them. If these are friendlies, let's start with that, let's start with the user, user group. And then, lastly, is how do we bring some scale to this? So, once we do put this into market, we're going to optimize as we go along and then, as we get the results, how do we make it better for the next campaign? How do we bring true scale? How do we make this a factory model so that we can really, you know, industrialize these efforts?

37:39 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Yeah, no, I love that. And especially with the principle of starting small, then, you know, finishing with how do we scale this up, how do we industrialize it and and really, you know, expand it out to the rest of the organization, is going to create a significant amount of impact. I think this is exciting. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing I know you mentioned this is something that you've really started to dig into and shift a little bit from more traditional human centered design to, you know, this promise to the customer methodology. I really like the approach overall. I think that there's a lot of advantages to it. I've worked with you in the past and I really enjoy working with you. I'm excited to hear that you're bringing it to a number of different banks already and I guess for our listeners, if they're sitting at a bank or another institution and they want to talk to you about how to bring promise to the customer to their organization, what is the best way that they can get in touch with you?

38:42 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

Thanks, Fred. I appreciate that open invite. I can certainly be found at brandondgerinacom. Also, you can follow me on LinkedIn and feel free to connect. I'm happy to just have a conversation, chat, share stories and get to know you.

38:56 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Fantastic. Well, this has been really great. I'm excited to hear how it turns out. Are you going to be at any of the upcoming banking conferences by chance?

39:06 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

Yeah, the financial brand forum coming up in Las Vegas in May. I'll be speaking on how to do more with less leveraging the captive audiences. So that'll be that's my next appearance I have scheduled.

39:18 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Fantastic. Well, I will be there as well, so I look forward to seeing you there, if not beforehand.

39:23 - Brandon Gerena (Guest)

Excellent Thanks, Fred.

39:25 - Fred Cadena (Host)

All right, thank you very much, until next time. This is Fred Cavena, wishing you success in your digital pursuits.